Curse

tafy69 · Mar 22, 2006, 08:48 AM // 08:48

Ah the good old obsidian spike team, tough as hell to break and interupt

Even Surgers cant shut down their spike.

icemonkey · Mar 22, 2006, 04:06 PM // 16:06

it may be a good beginners spike for its simplicity but ZERO good teams run it because its crappy end of story.

and it really does not have versatility, you know what spike has versatility blood spike thats why you see it holding halls and raping good teams on the GvG ladder. Ob flame spike will never beat the top teams like blood spike can.

you wanna really know why it has no versatility? Ele prefession offers no advantage over another class (larger energy pool is not an advantage). Don't believe me? Look at rift's build, that would not work with ele primaries.

geo spike also wastes every spikers elite skill, blood spike doesnt, most spikes dont.

mesmer secondary is useful, but a build is robust when it has a VARIETY of secondaries, not just one. With mixed spike you can get a little of everything.

geo spike is garbage, prove me wrong by making an argument that doesn't hinge on a single point that in the grand scheme of things is inconsequential

JR · Mar 22, 2006, 05:21 PM // 17:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by icemonkey

geo spike is garbage, prove me wrong by making an argument that doesn't hinge on a single point that in the grand scheme of things is inconsequential

You may be right about lack of utility, however you are a bit overzealous in saying it is straight up garbage. It is a decent build, just not great.

Mage Henchnem · Mar 22, 2006, 05:34 PM // 17:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

You may be right about lack of utility, however you are a bit overzealous in saying it is straight up garbage. It is a decent build, just not great.

/agreed

It is a decent spike, but don't expect to hold halls for a long time with it.

Solberg the Exiled · Mar 23, 2006, 04:26 AM // 04:26

Nothing wrong really with Obsidian Flame spike. Yes it can be a bit one dimensional, but it's certainly a viable build.

And being such a pure form of spike....it just seems quite elegant. (There is no orders of vamp/pain that you can negate or remove, there is no walls that you can hide behind, there is no deep wound that you can remove) It's just pure damage that ignores armor.

And there are many varient of it too, the guild mtv ran a varient of obsidian flame spike (with monks instead of eles) that held the hall for quite some time. I also believe that obsidian flame spike is a good place to learn your first spike build too as it is so simple to execute.

suiraCLAW · Mar 23, 2006, 06:29 PM // 18:29

What if all spikers take these heal skills: heal seed, heal other and heal area. This way 2 monks should be enough. (my opinion, need to be tested)

art_ · Mar 23, 2006, 07:24 PM // 19:24

Yes that would be an option. Obviously you would be vulnerable to interrupts though. And you'd be relying on your monks for any enchantment removal...

icemonkey · Mar 24, 2006, 12:03 AM // 00:03

you just dont get it. You don;t need another earth spiker for damage you have plenty. Mix spike is better becasue of how robust it is. Blood spike is good because of its infinite energy and the unavoidable damage.

one type of ele spike is just not viable

Weeping Wind · Mar 24, 2006, 09:24 AM // 09:24

Quote:

you just dont get it. You don;t need another earth spiker for damage you have plenty. Mix spike is better becasue of how robust it is. Blood spike is good because of its infinite energy and the unavoidable damage.

one type of ele spike is just not viable

To be honest it would work. Even just for the first two rounds. But then the kind of people that would play this simple spike would not be looking to go hold HoH for hours on end. Like numerous people have said it would be for the newbies looking into spiking. They wouldnt care how "Robust" the spike is because they are learning to spike.

So, in the beginning I wasnt asking for a better build, I was simply asking would it work. And like people have said it would work. Just not the extent of your "Uber mixed spikes..."

Weeping

JR · Mar 24, 2006, 11:23 AM // 11:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by icemonkey

you just dont get it. You don;t need another earth spiker for damage you have plenty. Mix spike is better becasue of how robust it is. Blood spike is good because of its infinite energy and the unavoidable damage.

one type of ele spike is just not viable

So you are saying that a spike consisting of 5 E/Me's all using the same line is not viable. And yet the Rifts Air Spike build which consists of 5 Me/E's all using Air magic dominates...

So whats the difference? Please explain why a build with a massively strong defense against warriors and a decent spike is bad in HA?

LightningHell · Mar 24, 2006, 12:11 PM // 12:11

And it's not too slack on utility skills either.

Weeping Wind · Mar 24, 2006, 02:46 PM // 14:46

Quote:

And it's not too slack on utility skills either.

If you mean the Ele's skill bar, you are right. You only need 3 to 4 definate skills on the bar and the rest can easily be defensive skills which Earth eles are good at anyway.

Weeping

icemonkey · Mar 24, 2006, 04:25 PM // 16:25

JR- yer comparing GvG to HoH, not a good comparison. the extra skills on a mix spike that aren't used for spike revolve around altars ghostly and running relics, or some healing/protection utility. Thats where robust comes in, and it is important in different ways in HoH than in GvG.

If you are only looking to win 2 in a row play IWAY. Once you get good at it you can win HoH with IWAY, math/matrix do it fairly regularly. VERY unlikely you will win HoH with geo spike. You do realize this build has 0 enchant removal. what are you gonna do when someone caps the altar and just keeps prot spirit up on their ghostly: type gg.

I don't see why this is a good learners spike, you don't need LOS so you won't really learn movement, and you basically have no way to deal with a difficult situation. To get timing down? Go do that in PvE. Honestly if you have never spiked and you are worried about how it will go, go spike thunderhead keep. you will get all your timing down. Thats why you should just go with a mixed spike, if you don't know the timing set it up and do it in PvE to get that down then go to HoH

You do not need to limit your potential before you start by picking a mediocre build. PvP is about striving to be the best. Play to Win.

CAT · Apr 10, 2006, 11:12 AM // 11:12

Obs Spike is probably the most powerful 1v1 spike. All spikers having armor of earth and resolve makes the spike very less "squishy". With 2-3 gales you have no problem killing pesky prot spirit monks. But just like any build, 1v1 isnt enough. You start incorporating other maps.

5 obs spikers will not be able to survive long on an alter, you need corpse control, or i promise you, you will get by profane every time. So your left with 4 spikers and a blood necro. You also will have problems physically running the relics, especially in sacred temples, and spirit spamming is nice as well. Then you add in the air ele for windbourne, and pp/shatter for added damage and utility capabilities. Obs spikes faded out for rainbow spikes, in the fact that rainbow is LOADS of utility making IWAY, relic runs, and alter a piece of cake. Obsidian flame is a perfect spike though if your just practicing spikers or practicing calling yourself. I got my start caling obs~

Thom Bangalter · Apr 13, 2006, 08:49 AM // 08:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by icemonkey

it may be a good beginners spike for its simplicity but ZERO good teams run it because its crappy end of story.

o rly? because i got rolled by a r9+ pug with some ex-guildies in it. Bunch of E/mo that chain aegis, plus wards, plus monks, plus whatever spot removal they can bring, means they can be every bit as strong as blood spike groups, they just have to skip on the monk elites.

However, ward against melee+aegis is rough as a warrior, and they can just spike down the mesmers real fast, since it only takes one spike to kill your e denial or migraine or whatever.

icemonkey · Apr 13, 2006, 02:12 PM // 14:12

good luck at halls, all that nonsense will break down

Sephir Demange · Apr 13, 2006, 02:49 PM // 14:49

[snip - JR: Let's not start epeen fights]

As far as all the utilities you mentioned a mixed spike as being able to have, if I'm not mistaken a great amount of utilities in tombs are of the, get this, ELEMENTALIST skill set. Things that immediately come to mind as good utility skills in a tombs build: Gale, Ward vs. Foes, Windbourne Speed. The others would include corpse control and a spell breaker bypassing interrupt. As with all builds, the potential is there for at least moderate success, however, the details need a little fleshing out.

icemonkey · Apr 13, 2006, 05:23 PM // 17:23

wow you could not be more wrong...elementalist has no utility skills

utility skills good for holding halls:
martyr
healing hands
healing seed
blood is power
blood ritual
aegis
spirit hunting ability(fast phsical attacks)
fertile season
spell breaker
symbiosis
life attunement
mark of protection
heal party
shock
well of profane

thats not all of them
but only one is an ele skill and like all the ele skills you have mentioned other than ward of foes, these skills are absolutly no reason to take the ele primary profession, most are effective at low attribute and most are enhanced by other professions (fast cast for example)

if you really think this is a good build, fine im done arguing about it but know the truth, obsidian spike never/rarely wins halls. And if you play obsidian spike you will never/rarely win halls. enjoy sucking

Sephir Demange · Apr 13, 2006, 08:53 PM // 20:53

How many of the skills on your lists are actually utilities? Most of them are seen at the core of most builds so I don't really consider them to be considered "utilities". Things like BiP and BR yes, are useful to have but not necessary, it's impossible to compare that to an aegis or seed or heal party. "Elementalists have no utilities" not to be argumentative, but you cannot be more wrong. I gave three obvious examples: Windbourne, Gale, and Ward Vs. Foes.

Psykewne · Apr 13, 2006, 09:30 PM // 21:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by icemonkey

wow you could not be more wrong...elementalist has no utility skills

utility skills good for holding halls:
martyr
healing hands
healing seed
blood is power
blood ritual
aegis
spirit hunting ability(fast phsical attacks)
fertile season
spell breaker
symbiosis
life attunement
mark of protection
heal party
shock
well of profane

thats not all of them
but only one is an ele skill and like all the ele skills you have mentioned other than ward of foes, these skills are absolutly no reason to take the ele primary profession, most are effective at low attribute and most are enhanced by other professions (fast cast for example)

if you really think this is a good build, fine im done arguing about it but know the truth, obsidian spike never/rarely wins halls. And if you play obsidian spike you will never/rarely win halls. enjoy sucking

So aegis and heal party are just utilities now?.... hrm....

Ok so first off we have the issue that some people in this arguement are not clear on what a utility skill is.

Here we are reffering to skills used in one or two specific locations to increase win potential (ie. windbourne at start of broken tower, gale and ward of foes on relic runs, spellbreaker for hero on altar maps)

Spirits are not utility they are a little more build effecting to be called utility i'm afraid... (ie. if you bring fertile its for dealing with spikes or holding, this means your build has to be designed into spamming fertile to maintain it when it will almost always be a target for the other team, and also you need heal party in order to cope with sudden hp drops that may require healing to the entire party.)

Anyway my point being i think it's important we are clear on the arguement here, windbourne on broken tower can decide the win or loss and so can foes, depending on your build as a whole.

Back to the topic.

Obs flame is a fine spike, but trouble is it shines best using mes secondary and mantra of resolve which then creates a pretty mean spike that is a pain to disrupt or avoid. Unfortunately that means skimping on potential secondary options.

Now you can also mimic blood spike and use the monk secondaries but then you become interuptable like blood spike is.

The build has potential to work but like any build its reliant on the players.

No use sniping people because you don't like the build, the potential is there and unconstructive remarks don't help anyone.

i've seen some pretty retarded stuff win and hold halls and all hours of the day so there's potential to have success here regardless of what anyone else might say, this build could beat you one day, and the next you could beat it. just like every other build that has at least some thought into it.